Max Degen

Born:

24 October 1942, Amsterdam

Interview:

14 June 2010

"Soldiers' boots"

In this interview is talked about:

• Jewish life

  Which Jewish customs and traditions are referred to by the interviewees? Did they observe Jewish holidays before the Second World War? What role does their Jewishness play now? This section deals with Jewish life in the Netherlands and Poland.

  Although his caring foster parents had given him a protective and christian upbringing, Max Degen felt a growing interest in Jewry when he gradually untightened the bonds with them and came to live on his own. Jewish belief came to life for him more and more and he returned to his Jewish religious roots.

  • 01:22:30 Uprooted and reconnected View fragment »
• Life during the war

  Daily life was becoming more and more difficult for Jews during the German occupation. Persecution gradually became more intrusive and more gruesome. People tried to carry on with their everyday lives as long as they could.

  Aged about ten days, little Max Degen was handed over by his parents to non-Jewish, German aunt Wies and Jewish uncle Sjaak, whose house they considered an appropriate hiding place. The four adults had known each other well: they would have dinner together at Friday evenings. Uncle Sjaak was murdered in Auschwitz during the war. Max' foster parents, the Schaap family, took care of him lovingly during and after the war. After the war aunt Wies appeared to have kept money she had received from Max' parents for his sustance, for herself.

  • 22:04 Loyalty? View fragment »
• Expectations

  Jews in the Netherlands must have sensed that life under German occupation was going to be hard and unpleasant for them. But what did they expect, what exactly did they think?

  Max Degen's parents thought in 1942 that they would be deported in order to work in Germany or Poland. Although they were told there would be a nanny system, they are certain it that being with a baby at this unknown destination was going to be difficult. Far before they received a summons they provided for a hiding address for young Max. His elder brother Sjakie, aged three years, stayed with his parents.

  • 00:37 Bringing a little baby into safety View fragment »
• In hiding

  Part of the interviewees survived the war in hiding. Members of this group were in hiding with a non-Jewish foster family in the Netherlands as a baby or infant. A number of those surviving Sobibor found a hiding place in Poland after the revolt.

  Young Max Degen's parents provided for a hiding address for their son. During a raid at this address Max was taken away. He was, however, smuggled out of the kindergarten opposite the "Hollandse Schouwburg" and subsequently brought to Zaandam, to foster parents of reformed denomination.

  Max Degen moved with his foster parents to another place several times because circumstances were becoming too dangerous. His first memory is of the sound of thumping boots of soldiers in a raid, while he and his foster father hid in a closet. His foster parents were nice for him; he grew up in a loving family.

  • 00:37 A narrow escape View fragment »
  • 23:06 Soldiers' boots View fragment »
• Life after the war

  How did it feel when many did not return after the war? Interviewees recollect how they resumed their lives, shaped by such huge losses.

  After the war Max Degen stayed as a foster parent with his parents-in-hiding, the Schaap family. For a long time he considered his foster parents his real parents, although they did tell him that his parents probably would not come back. Max was called Max Schaap during his whole childhood. He was badgered as "Jew-boy" in school at times, but has few recollections of this. He received a caring, protective, and strict reformed upbringing. After the war there was struggle about his upbringing, but in the end he was allotted to the Schaap family. His foster parents did not involve him in this struggle.

  • 11:20 View fragment »
• Rebuilding lives

  So many people, so many different lives. Each of the interviewees have their own way of coping with the enormous loss that bears the name of Sobibor.

  Max called himself Degen - his father's surname - from the moment he went to serve his term in the army. During the following period he met his wife Lutie and began to untighten the bonds of his protective upbringing, plunging himself into his work for diversion. When he was about forty, Max Degen suffered more and more from mental health problems related with his past as a war orphan.
  He was allowed to see his file as a child in hiding only in the 'eighties; perusal had been forbidden up to that time. He still didn't feel free to look into these documents. He began to read more about the war and to come out with his story gradually and carefully. Max Degen now visits schools on order to tell his story to the younger generation.

  • 01:01:02 View fragment »
  • 01:43:44 View fragment »
• Consequences of Sobibor

  Interviewees lost loved ones and relatives in Sobibor. Here they talk freely about the role these losses still play in their lives.

  When he was about forty, Max Degen suffered more and more from mental health problems related with his past as a war orphan. He would often wonder what his parents, had they still been alive, would have felt or done about certain issues or situations.

  • 01:55:11 View fragment »
• Demjanjuk trial

  Next of kin to people killed in Sobibor, and survivors of the revolt played a major role as co-plaintiffs during the Demjanjuk trial.

  Max Degen's parents and three-year old brother were murdered in Sobibor on Apri 9, 1943. Attending the Demjanjuk trial was very hard for him at times. He felt very positive about testifying himself. The accused opened his eyes during Max' testimony: Max felt triumphant about this. He thought Demjanjuk did not need to be convicted; ageing in Germany was a punishment in itself.

  • 02:14:13 View fragment »